Talk:Ortiz Lopez

The community lore section of Ortiz Lopez's wiki page is extremely uncomfortable and borderline fetishistic of trans woman and should be removed or heavily rewritten if possible. I do not know the intention behind the person/people who wrote the article, but most if not all of her lore centers around her being a tall, sexy, polyamorous transfem gorgon. I don't know how else to describe it, but it comes off as incredibly reductive, fetishistic, and unnecessary for this community. I see very little reason to keep this lore because people can be and have been harmed by the depiction of this character.

+1. This page echoes a lot of anti-trans and specifically transmisogynistic rhetoric, including "trans women transition because they fetishize cross-dressing." It's also incredibly racially charged, as both her forename and surname are Latine. Latina trans women already face hypersexualization as Latinas as well as being trans women, and this is specifically a very harmful combination. Having "officially" codified lore like this as the primary point of reference for fans who aren't immersed in Lovers channels on Discord can and does make fans feel actively unsafe in those spaces. Reconsider this.

ty for bringing this up,the overemphasis on the sexy really does depersonalize her and frames her as somewhat of an object of desire than a person who is attractive, simply due to the wording. I would really love to hear more about Ortiz as an individual and not just how attractive she is? And while I think she should be proud of her looks and be polyamorous, I do think with everything else there she does end up coming across as very hypersexualized. I am also concerned that there is such an emphasis on how sexy she is considering she is also Latina and i'm fairly sure the oversexualization of Latinas is a Thing. There is also the concern that she is a Trans Woman and the emphasis on how sexual she is considering that trans bodies are so often sexualized in a way that causes them genuine physical harm is...not great! I think she can see herself and be seen as beautiful but the way the wiki is written does Ortiz as a character, Latinas, Trans Women, and Latina Trans Women such a huge disservice.

I'm seeing a lot of people read their own transphobia into this, she's trans, and hot, there's nothing on this that fetishes trans women or say anything about "cross-dressing". She's a great character that happens to also be attractive, and her lore has been worked on by a variety of people, many of which are trans.

Now this I agree with. As a fellow trans woman, I see nothing that inherently fetishizes her in any way. All I see is a woman who has transitioned really well and is confident in her body. As someone who experiences dysphoria, it is nice to me to see characters in media such as this who are confident in themselves, and it gives me hope for the future. Now I do agree that she deserves a lot of other lore that will make her more of a person and less of an object, however, part of that personality should be her confidence in her body.

Hello, administrator here. Essentially this has come up before, not necessarily on the wiki but within the community prior to the grand siesta. Our stance on it then didn't require that we examined the language super closely given where and how the discussion happened.

Our stance on it now is balancing two things: 1) the language is undeniably not great as it currently stands, and we had not reviewed it super closely before; 2) recognition of the fact that "sexy trans woman" is not in and of itself inherently fetishistic. The plan is to work with the Lovers on the main Blaseball discord to give it another pass and see where it is after taking these concerns into consideration. The administration team will review it again at that point and make a decision on what is next at that time.

As an addendum, this is the kind of thing where you can also contact a member of the moderation team directly to make sure our eyes are on it.

These concerns have been noted by the Lovers community. There have been plans to add things to Ortiz's page that have sadly went by the wayside for one reason or another that we will plan on rectifying by the end of the upcoming siesta break if not sooner. We have a bad habit of having communal/spoken lore and then never getting around to updating the wiki, this is one of those times.

I appreciate specifically here the fact that the concerns have been noted, but I am concerned about the phrasing of "adding things"; the problem here isn't just that the only things on her page are objectively bad language and causing several members of the community distress, but the fact that it's on there to begin with. I don't think this is just a problem of "adding things" as much as it's a problem that needs a full-page rewrite at the very least.

A revision of what already exists is planned, as well as the aforementioned additions that never made it to the wiki.

Alright! Would it be too much to ask that the full text of the revision + additions be posted to the talk page in some way, i.e. a google doc, etc., before it changes on the page? In a case like this, I feel like getting community eyes on it fully beforehand this time would be good, and I know wiki policy isn't always to have the full text.

Going to formally ask that if the draft is posted that conversation happens here. Part of the reason why we are here in the first place is dueling edits on a Google doc and this isn't really the avenue for copy editing. Rather, the subject of the discussion should address the concerns brought up here.

The Google Doc was meant because I assumed a revision would be long, and I didn't want it to be inaccessible to people who are involved in this discussion. It wasn't meant to be the place of discussion itself in that context. But thank you for the addition! That makes sense.

Update for the people waiting for details:

We're currently researching the Nahua people of Mesoamerica, and making the extra effort to make sure that what we put up there is respectful to that culture (also, we've toned down a lot of /r/menwritingwomen aspects of this article while still maintaining the original intent of Ortiz Lopez being a confident beauty.) Hopefully we'll have something to show by this weekend.

Here's what we've reworked and toned down, as well as expanding on. The overall intent to make Ortiz a character who is a trans woman who is comfortable and confident with her body and playing into a bit of a "goddess of love" vibe you'd see with Aphrodite/Venus. We also tied a lot into her heritage/culture while making it known that she's a caretaker and protector who values friends/family/community.

There may be additional edits on a few things (particularly her snakes) but that didn't seem worth holding this update for you all off and will likely be added a bit later.

Article:

Lopez, a pansexual trans woman, is the most confident and seductive of the Lovers, standing at a mighty seven feet tall. She has bright pink skin, no eyes, red snakes for hair, and a heart full of kindness for her fellow teammates. It's no exaggeration to say that this Goliath of a gorgon possesses such inner and outer beauty that Aphrodite herself would admire her.

Lopez's good looks can be a hindrance, though, as she occasionally distracts herself by taking selfies or finding the perfect pose to pick a ball up off from the ground that she forgets that the game is time-sensitive, and fails to perform. There is also an unpredictable aspect of Lopez, her medusa-like hair of glittering red snakes, that act as her eyes to find the ball, as they will often just do their own thing, because they're giant snakes, and completely not sentient or intelligent. They are just snakes. She is also known to be enthusiastic about stealing bases, with the intent of getting closer to her loved ones in the dugout regardless of the consequences. These factors contribute to her sometimes unreliable nature on the field.

Hailing from a Nahua tribe, Lopez's caring nature, dominant stature, and ability to literally eat fire led her to be regarded as a beloved protector of her people. That same protective spirit and love for her community translated perfectly to her blaseball career, and she has come to be admired as one of the few players willing and able to stand up to the rain of ump-fire during solar eclipses.

Lopez attributes her strength and passion both on and off the field to Xiuhcoatl, the turquoise serpent of flame revered among her people for bringing light to the world. Some whisper of a deeper connection between the two, as evidenced by Lopez’s serpentine hair. When asked about this, however, Lopez’s only reply was to smile coyly and say, “A girl has to have some secrets.” Her snakes hissed in agreement, or possibly in agitation as they dropped a bat.

Many other myths surround the origin of Lopez: some say that she appeared from the sky, while others say that she is simply something that exists, a pure being of attractiveness and mystery. Whatever her true origin, Lopez is a valued part of the splort of Blaseball, and is a dependable member of the team.

Additional Trivia We Plan on Adding:

- Lopez’s name is rooted in her attempts to maintain her connection to her cultural heritage while making her name her own, opting to go exclusively by her last names, Ortiz Lopez.

- Lopez's snakes used to have differing beliefs of how to best play blaseball, but seasons worth of experience has refined them to a cohesive team, improving Lopez's ability to bat significantly. They have yet to form a consensus on pitching, however.

Hi, I know you very much don't want to hear this from me (and I'm sorry in advance), but I really feel like this could have benefited from having an actual Nahua person involved in this discussion, because while I'm confident you mean well with this, you seem to be dealing with an indigenous culture you've had little to no experience with before now. Again, sorry this is coming from me, but I felt like I had to say something.

Thanks for your concern. This is something we concerned ourselves with as well. The original idea was pitched to us by someone with a latine indigenous background who is no longer with the blaseball community. We've had several people research this (which is why it has taken so long) using what means we have within our own community, many from diverse backgrounds even if they may not be Nahua.

If someone with connections to the Nahua people (or is more familiar with them than our researchers) is present in the Blaseball community and has concerns we will happily address them and rectify them, but ultimately we followed the advice of members of the wiki community which was: "ultimately allyship is more about "are you trying to do research & listening when someone says you missed stuff," not "are you only speaking to your own experience," so I encourage you to get folks to write that stuff up."

If we missed anything or made a mistake somewhere in our depiction of the Nahua people, please let us know.

Thanks for the response! I don't have any more specific concerns, but it might be good to link your revision in the blaseball discord to get more eyes on it just in case.

I have a few questions about this characterization:

First, despite her Nahua heritage, she seems to be connected to Greek mythology, with the reference to her as a gorgon with snakes for hair and the mention of Aphrodite. If this is the intent, why not make Greek part of her heritage? If not, maybe remove it?

Second, you seem to be drawing upon Aztec mythology rather than any modern Nahua culture. I do not know of any modern Nahua tribes revering Aztec gods. You blur the line between having her be a woman and a mythological being (which I kinda like), but, given that she has a Hispanic name (and that you specifically link it to her heritage), it doesn't seem like she is a pre-Columbian entity. I would expect her to be Catholic like most of her people.

Third, her blindness is not addressed in any meaningful way. It is said that she is led in her blaseball play by her snakes, which are unreliable, but it does not address other aspects of her life (and would seem to be at odds with her taking selfies).

Finally, her vanity and preoccupation with her appearance feels like it relies on stereotypes of trans women. There is certainly nothing wrong with a trans woman being proud of her appearance, as I myself am, but this seems to cross a line into an obsession with her looks, which is a common and unfortunate portrayal.

Mxmox said most of what I would want to include, but I also want to respond in regards to her name. I had some of the same concerns as we were writing, and did some brief research. As always, I could have missed something, and I'm happy to be corrected by someone more informed, but this is what I found.

Without getting too deep in the weeds, it's reasonable to say that a decent amount of Nahua people have Hispanic names. Many of them took names through Christian baptisms and held onto them through generations (although exact numbers are hard to pin down). From what I can gather, reclaiming heritage by picking a Nahuatl name is a point of discussion in Nahua cultural circles, but there's nothing necessarily inaccurate about her having a Christian Hispanic name while also coming from a Nahua background.

My reading would be that the communities Ortiz comes from use Christian names, and she's maintaining connections to her communities in particular- after all, the Nahua aren't a cultural monolith, and her cultural ties are going to be to specific Nahua communities that could have any combination of Nahua and Hispanic names.

There was definitely a good faith effort to include Nahua voices in the cultural aspect of the character, but none stepped forward when we originally put out the call. As Link said, we've done our best to perform due diligence in approaching her heritage in this way, but none of us are seasoned subject matter experts. We're cognizant of the possibility that we may hit a wrong note and need to revisit some elements. That's what the discussion's for, after all!

Regarding Emst's second point, while ancient religious traditions do persist to varying degrees in modern Nahua society, I understand the phrasing there may be misinterpreted to suggest that all Nahua people hold that reverence, so I think it's fair to revisit that. Our lead researcher suggested that expanding on Ortiz's relationship to Xiuhcoatl to frame it as an act of decolonization and reclamation of Nahua heritage. I think that adds meaningfully to that part of the lore while making the distinction between the past and present religious situations in Nahua culture.

To briefly address Emst's other points:

Ortiz does not have a significant lore connection with Greece aside from being a mythical creature based on Greek mythology. The mention of Aphrodite was coincidental and was not intended to imply a further connection.

Her blindness is not explored further for the same reason her having snakes for hair isn't further explained. It's simply how she is and that informs further fan works. She is affected by blindness in the same ways the average reader can be reasonably expected to infer. Being blind does not preclude having fun taking selfies and letting others enjoy them.

Ortiz is confident in her appearance and has fun with it. She's not a narcissist. Note that "vanity" is your word, not one used in the rewrite. While we're aware that an uncharitable reading of the character may play to that stereotype, it's been repeatedly affirmed by trans women on our team that this is a treatment that they appreciate and want to see.

To comment specifically on some of the clashing themes in this article. Please keep in mind that the original article for this Season One player has been around for... well, over 6 months now maybe longer, and in "blaseball years" feels like decades. This was a time when there was less thought being put into the readings of things and it was a bit of the wild west when it came to people writing lore.

Many of these elements have been maintained in an effort to respect the original author's creation while doing our best to remove the problematic elements and also focusing on tapping into Ortiz's cultural background more instead of simply ignoring it like the original character concept did.

The Aphrodite thing was mentioned primarily to tap into that "goddess of love" type energy that we were going for, because Hades and Atlantis exist it felt appropriate to draw parallels to those Greek myths. Originally we were going to say Venus instead of Aphrodite, but we felt it would give the Georgias a nice plot thread they could work with if they so desired since that is Ortiz's current home team. The fact she is a Gorgon is more of an unrelated coincidence.

i have to agree with Emst and Snerkus. it's one thing to be a non-native person or group of people simply writing a native character. but if you're writing a character with intent to portray a post-colonial narrative or include elements of the complex ways native people *can and do* relate to their culture in post-colonial frameworks (as they do *outside* of fiction) then you absolutely need native input, and almost always specifically that of the culture in question or a related culture. you mention that "the original idea" was pitched to you by a latinx member of this culture, which is good. you *also* mention the decolonizing narrative was devised by your "lead researcher" who i assume is a different, non-nahua person. that's the component that needs native input the absolute most. it is very important that nahua input be given on this narrative or else you are telling a story that isn't yours from an outsider perspective, which is at best shallow insight, and at worst performative and misleading. it's not clear who this narrative is even written for, if this character was and continues to be written without *present* nahua input; it either is written for nahua people as a sort of patronizing "gift," an exercise in trying to understand a culture through research as opposed to dialogue; or it is written for non-nahua people, which instead reads like exoticism wrapped up in perfomative wokeness.

i don't begrudge your research abilities. i have to note that cursory research is not enough especially when it's people from entirely different cultures trying to create a narrative for a wholly different people. whatever information you may have gathered is being filtered through a non-nahua lens—both that of your own and, very likely, that of where you are receiving your information.

it is also frankly even more strange to me that nahua religion is involved in this work without consultation of anyone familiar with such a belief system. implying she has a deep connection with this god is akin to (forgive my christian analogy here) calling her Jesus? isn't that a little weird? perhaps some consultation is in order?

furthermore, greek mythology (as filtered through a modern western pop cultural lens) being adopted for a supposedly post-colonial nahua character is an unfortunately ironic example of how, as well-intentioned as this piece may be, it remains short-sighted as an attempt at post-colonial writing. i do not mean to say this contradiction is fatal to this page, but that it is illustrative of how the supposed post-colonialism of this revision feels somewhat at odds with itself. it's clear this is because a hispanic name was given a character whose design is largely based off of greek pop mythology. if this text is to be post-colonial it would ideally be able to confront the issue of how and why a clearly hispanic name was given such a design.

please do not think of me as rude as i provide this input. i'm not trying to shut this character down or the narrative trying to be constructed here—i'm only trying to underscore exactly how important it is that a character being purposefully written with post-colonial nahua narrative elements be either guided by a nahua voice, or that the story be left to nahua people to tell themselves, and that your energy be redirected towards elevating nahua stories in their own voices.

(regarding sexualization, the language in this revision certainly does feel a *massive* amount more respectful. the previous version is absurd and so hypersexualized it feels farcical. the one criticism i have in this new revision is that "Lopez's good looks can be a hindrance, though, as she occasionally distracts herself by taking selfies or finding the perfect pose to pick a ball up off from the ground that she forgets that the game is time-sensitive, and fails to perform" is still too parodical for my taste, given how much more seriously this revision would like Lopez to be taken.)

RE: "it's not clear who this narrative is even written for."

We're discussing and digging further into the origins of where this idea came from (it was first suggested in October, and was then picked up in later months over the Grand Siesta by a user who seemed to really like the concept and had a cultural connection to it in some shape or form (what that is, I can't say because this user has since left the Blaseball community. But we'll try to find out.) We basically took the work she did and energy and enthusiasm she had for it and are attempting to carry this across the finish line, so to speak.

We'll continue to reflect on this though and make adjustments as necessary, including perhaps removing this narrative entirely if we're unable to find a satisfying resolution. You are correct however "it's clear this is because a hispanic name was given a character whose design is largely based off of greek pop mythology". This is one of those rare blaseball situations where people saw nominative determinism and went in the entirely opposite direction with the player's design, in a sense white-washing them and we're doing our best to address that in this rework (whether that's through this version or a different version we resubmit.)

Hey! Hi! I'm the xicane person who left the blaseball community, who came up with a bunch of the lore around Ortiz being xicana. which I never added to the wiki, because I figured exactly this shit would happen.

Ortiz's page was the first blaseball player page I ever read. It's the one that sold me on joining blaseball. Her name reminded me of the Latino baseball players who were my heroes as a kid growing up and her design? Honestly? Slaps. I grew up reading and loving Greek mythology as a kid, I don't see how xicane and greek aspects of a character have to be mutually exclusive.

It's always been important to me that Ortiz is a Latina icon. I put a lot of my Mexican culture into her because that's what I am and that's what I know. However. I was not the one to come up with her connection to Xiuhcoatl. My mythology nerd ass thought it was a cool as hell idea and I riffed off of it a lot, but I ended up balking at putting any of it on the wiki. Because cultural impostor syndrome is an asshole, and my access to my heritage throughout my life has been pretty fucking limited, and I wasn't sure if it would be appropriative of me to make that reference. And when I asked the couple other xicane people I know in blaseball about it, they said pretty much the same damn thing. Colonization and forced assimilation is a fucking bitch, y'all!

That said: is anyone in this thread who is so concerned over the portrayal of this character actually Nahua? Are you xicane? Indigenous? If not, especially if you're white, then turn your virtue signal off and kindly stay the hell out of this conversation.

I don't really have a solution here. I just wanted my voice to be heard amidst all the fucking white noise. Nesbitt and/or Steven, sorry for saying fuck on your good wiki. Don't @ me about this. I'm tired.

we all deserve a little fuck tbh; thanks for chiming in

Hi Albaqq, thanks for your comment!

I will try to answer this thoroughly, but a lot of her characterization is still in flux. Much of this will be context for previous choices as well as our plan going forward. Firstly, I am the person who did the majority of research of the Nahua people and suggest that her narrative be changed to one of cultural reclamation. I took on doing said research and suggested this angle because I myself am a native person, although I am from a North American nation and not the Nahua or Mexica people. Originally, a person of Mexican descent wanted her to be of Mexican descent as well. This individual liked the idea of her both being Nahua and having Xuihcoatl be significant to her. Honoring this original intent as important to us and we are still trying to figure out the best way to make it respectful while maintaining it's importance to Ortiz and integrating it into her character. I do not want to dismiss your concerns about how her connection to Xiuhcoatl has been portrayed; however, we have already decided the change it but have not fully written the changes. I can explain where we're going with her connection to Xuihcoatl in the near future. Here is what I personally thought and suggested:

As a native person, to me and many natives that I know personally, a large part of decolonizing ourselves and reclaiming/reconnecting with our heritage is going back to older traditions and learning from them in ways that make us feel the most connected

So it might be good to frame it as like "Ortiz heard stories about Xuihcoatl growing up and as she grew into herself, connected with these stories and what he represents very deeply. She attributes her strength to him, and his image has helped guide her in life"

The "connection" between Ortiz and Xuihcoatl that we want to portray is one of her looking to him as a figure who deeply resonates with her. Less of a patron and more of a figure that she admires and found comfort in the thought of. Related to this as well, if the "mysterious origins/deeper connection" line does not sit right with people, we will gladly omit it.

Again, thank you for you feedback, I hope this helped, and I can answer any further questions you have to the best of my abilities.

Hi, everyone. Just checking in with the reminder that the point of sharing things and having this discussion here is ultimately for getting something on the page that works and that people are generally satisfied with. There's no problem yet, but I wanted to remind people that we have a few resources for how to keep this conversation on track. You can visit Help:Critiquing Proposals for some guidelines on the critique itself and Help:Talk Page Best Practices for a few more best practices when it comes to the usability of the talk page.

I appreciate everyone bringing a critical eye and an attitude based in kindness thus far.

Update: Solanum and TwoHeadedButt are working on an update, they're putting the final details on it right now and hopefully we'll have something for you all soon. If any other xicane/indigenous/latine folx (esp if they're trans) have input we welcome it, please feel free to reach out to me or them on discord.

hi! will this update include the current "relationships" section with PM? right now that whole thing with the blood sucking feels like the most weirdly sexual part of this page and makes me as a trans woman very uncomfortable with being depicted this way. it also feels inappropriate for a community with a lot of children. i also dont like how the twitter account being linked to plays with "unintelligent and sex obsessed" stereotypes and is just weirdly sexual.

thank you!

Hi there! As you can probably tell from the rest of this Talk thread, many of the critiques you mentioned are rather well-worn. In the interest of accelerating this process, could you please specifically suggest a solution that you would be comfortable accepting, as recommended in our critique guide?

i just saw there was this relationship section that was sexualized and didnt see it talked about here yet. the update that link posted doesn't include a relationships section and i was wondering if they were going to do something about that bit too.

To reiterate: can you please provide a specific suggestion that you would be comfortable with being on this page? As it stands, none of the content on this page is outside of the boundaries of wiki policy. Given that it's unknown whether the section will or will not be updated, it's better to say, "Hey, while this is being updated, I'd appreciate it if this could be changed to <insert suggestion here>" so that the people writing the update can incorporate the idea while they work, rather than simply saying "I want this changed."

Small admin note on this comment: the wiki follows PG-13 guidelines and the section on the relationship with Pitching Machine does not break any of those guidelines. It is up to the community to discuss if and how they want to change it, but it will not be removed on Community Safety grounds.

it just feels weird that this section is so clearly coded to be sexual and is being created and shared between users who might be kids? it's not like a pg-13 movie where there might be innuendo on screen, this is clearly sexualized stuff being shared interactively between minors. just because someone can find-and-replace "sex" with "sucking blood" doesn't make it any less sexual? edit: i dont know if this replied properly but i meant to reply to nesblitt

sorry, your argument here is 'if you replace one word with another word that has different meanings, the sentence has different meanings'? not only is drinking blood literally a game mechanic, there's nothing in this space that actually implies that drinking blood is meant to be sex. it's presented as a part of a relationship, in the same way that something pg-13 like kissing or going on dates would be. i think you're reading way too far into this.

i mean i think innuendo is innuendo even if you don't say "sex?" the whole consent tweet is kind of obvious isn't it? it's sexually coded. i think denying that it's sexually coded is a bit dishonest, the conversation i want to have is "is it okay to have sexually coded content being shared between children and adults"

The ship was started by the Blaseball community because of a series of tweets from the Ortiz twitter account (full disclosure, I run that account) where I thought it'd be funny to have Ortiz have a crush on the pitching machine (because nobody was RPing them at the time and I didn't want to get into the messy complicated world of twitter RP relationships.)

Being that Blaseball is the way it is, this escalated a day or so later when Pitching Machine (who was a huge focal point of the season and a huge deal) made their first blood drain and it was, of course, Ortiz Lopez. People were referencing the "thirst tweets" I made and then started pairing PM & Ortiz together. This section of the wiki was written combining community tweets, memes, propaganda, fanart & fanfic that was made about the in-game events.

At the moment we have no plans in mind for a rework of it as our focus has been on the other matters brought to our attention. I can, however assure you, that there was no "find-and-replace" involved here. I was referencing the actual Blood Drain that occurred in which players exchange blood in order to improve their stats by lowering someone else's stats.

yes but it talks about the blood drinking in a way that is really transparently meant to be a parallel to sex. it's talking about consent and talking about how ortiz felt jealous or hurt when she found out PM was doing it with other people. it even is referenced as being the plot of an erotica work later. it's just obviously that, i don't know how else to explain it.

If the section about the blood draining is not meant to be sexualized/is meant to be pg-13 then I feel the reference to an alternate universe version of a real world gay erotica author is out of place

the use of chuck tingle as inspiration was drawing from his tendency to use very generic, stock image photos on his covers, and his incredibly funny way of writing titles, and was intended as a safe for work parody. there is nothing in the name, cover, or even chulck tangles page itself that mentions nsfw content, it is deliberately specified that he is a romance novelist.

the point isn't that the parody isn't Literally Not Sexual, it's that it's a parody OF a sexual thing being clearly used to emphasize the erotic undertones of the blood sucking talk earlier. i know sex is not explicitly talked about here and obviously blood sucking isn't an sexual thing in blaseball on the website. i know that! that's not the problem! the problem is that there's really obvious subtext here and it's just really out of place, and it compounds on previous concerns about the page's over-sexualization, And it's weird it's being created and shared between children and adults. if it was Just the consent thing or Just the exclusivity thing or Just the gay erotica reference or Just the "down to her ass" comment earlier in the page or Just the whole section about how she's obsessed with selfies and her own appearance it'd be not a problem. But all of these things at once!! is a lot!! on this page!! at that point the subtext cant be denied and it's just wayyyyy too sexualized.

I'll just put this out there. Lovers consistently get labeled as being "too horny" about anything and everything, when we are no more or less horny than any other team in the fandom. If you go looking through the blaseball community (or even this wiki) I am sure you will find no shortage of "hot and steamy" fan art.

We have a reputation given to us BY BLASEBALL.COM, we did not choose our Emoji, we did not choose our Name, we didn't even choose our VERY SEXUALLY CHARGED SLOGAN "Let's Go All The Way!" if you have a problem with these sexual elements of our team, you should take it up with The Game Band. First and foremost our team has done its absolute best to centralize the themes of our teams on Love. Whether that's through family, friendship, cross-league unity, or the polyamorous relationship of many members on our team (which if you have issues with speaks more to someone's polyphobia and gross misunderstanding of what it means to be poly.) If people want to read into things, that's on them. We're happy to consider changes if people offer workable solutions instead of accusations of inappropriate behavior or ulterior motives.

If you want a literal explanation of the thought process of those tweets here they are:

- Vampires bite people on the neck. The neck is the defacto blood drain location.

- I made a joke about hickeys because that's what happens when something sucks on your neck. See above, Vampire reference.

- I used the word consensual to imply that Ortiz was not attacked by PM and it was something she gave permission to have done. The actual definition of consent.

- References of jealousy about sucking blood from others, it's because the intent was for Ortiz to feel as if there was a very unique bond/agreement between the two of them. Which, there was not, because Pitching Machine is just a Pitching Machine, the very idea that it has sentience is something that is kept ambiguous in the fandom. The intent was NOT that PM was "sleeping around" or anything of that nature.

Ash already outlined the Chulck Tangle thing. The author just released an LGBTQ Horror story. Not everything he writes is erotica. I was drawing inspiration from his style, not the content of Chuck Tingle's books. They are Romance Stories, as equally cheesy and goofy as the old Harlequin Romance novels that had Fabio on the cover (and I'm sure those could be considered erotica too, I've never read one so I couldn't say. I've just always found their iconic covers to be what one thinks of when you say 'Romance Novel'.)

To your point, we entirely agree that Ortiz's page needs an overhaul, and we are currently doing so. Perhaps once these changes are made it will feel less compounded upon. We thank you for your patience in this matter. We're reworking a player who has existed since Season 1, when the rules of the wiki and the fandom were much more lax and egregious things like "down to her ass" made its way onto the wiki without a second thought. We're also experiencing a very similar issue with Kichiro Guerra's original lore which is VERY "Weird About Japan" and went largely unnoticed (please also keep in mind the Lovers who add work on to the wiki nowadays are like... 3 or 4 people tops. So all we can do is ask for your patience.)

Not to distract from the larger discussion, but. Your team is the one with six NSFW-dedicated channels in its Discord. Most teams have one, if any. If there's concerns about your team being more horny than others, those channels might be worth looking into.

This comment is not related to the material at hand or appropriate for the wiki. I'm shutting down this line of argument.

im not talking about the lovers, i'm talking about this page. if you have a reputation that's not my fault and it has nothing to do with my discomfort (as a trans minor!!!!!!) with this page

i don't really think it matters what the process is that got you to the page as it exists now. the problem is that the page As It Exists Now, whether you think it's justified or not, Reads with sexually undertones. it doesn't matter what your intention was in writing the page this way, it made me uncomfortable and it clearly makes other people uncomfortable. im not trying to attack you here, and i dont think writing a page like this means you have bad intentions. im saying theres a problem and i would like the page to be changed in response to this problem.

edit in response to your edit: im glad this page is being changed i just dont want my concerns about this segment that you haven't talked about in this overhaul to be dismissed!! i think even if the entire rest of the page were different that whole section is still individually weird.

also while this page is being worked on can we just, remove the current segments that Are Egregious like "down to her ass" because if we can agree it shouldnt be on the wiki then we can just get rid of it for now? blank those sections? idk.

Ok, but what are your SUGGESTIONS. Saying "change it" is entirely unhelpful. Also, we are quite aware that the page "as it exists now" has problems. We've been working on those solutions for weeks, so as I said, please be patient.

get rid of the chuck tingle reference, pretty obviously? that alone would make it way less weird. then you'd still have a vaguely erotically coded few paragraphs but it wouldnt be tied so explicitly back into sex and it'd be less bad.

i've also made it pretty clear what my discomfort is? im not trying to write this character's lore for you, im saying what is here makes me uncomfortable and i'd like it to be changed. me stating my discomfort alone should be enough to be helpful and help you work out what needs to be changed

If renaming the author will solve the issue, we can easily do that when our rework is finalized.

Okay, this conversation is officially branching too far from the original intent of this thread, which is concerns over particularly fetishistic ways of presenting an attractive trans Latina character. The associated sections are in drafting, and are not currently available for critique. If you have further concerns about that topic specifically, you may continue to comment in this thread; presumably when the draft is available for critique, it will be posted here. If users would like to discuss the Ortiz Lopez x Pitching Machine section further, please continue that conversation in this thread.

Hello to everyone who has been keeping up with this thread! We have concluded our work for Ortiz Lopez's rewrite and have a version that can be reviewed and potentially posted to her wiki. Here is a link to it https://www.blaseball.wiki/w/Topic:Wc882lnzlk67h9yc

Thank you!

Hello all, the Lovers along with some none-Lovers have rewritten sections of Ortiz Lopez's wiki pages in regards to previews concerns about her backstory and physical description. Below is the Summary of Changes followed by the text that will be added to the page.

Summary of Changes

The “Early History” of Ortiz Lopez has been completely redone. There have also been changes to the “Engagement with Blaseball and Early Career”, and “Eating Fire”. Previously, Lopez was the remnant of Nahua deity, Xuihcoatl. This has been changed to have her be a pueblan milk snake, who was granted consciousness and the ability to take on a human form by Xiuhcoatl.

The purpose of edits to the “Engagement with Blaseball and Early Career  section was to make it cohesive with the “Early History”. The purpose of the edits to “Eating Fire” was cohesion, as well as adding in more details about her connection to Xuihcoatl.  

Concerns about Lopez’s sexualization and objectification have been addressed primarily by changes to language used to describe her, and decentering her sexuality in her transfem identify, as well as changing much of the language used to describe her.

---

Wiki Page Text

Wiki Summary

Lopez, a pansexual trans woman given new life by the gift of divine touch, is the most confident and seductive player in Internet League Blaseball. Lopez stands at a mighty seven feet tall. She has bright pink skin, no eyes, red snakes for hair, and a heart full of kindness for her fellow teammates. Always ready to defend her teammates from harm on and off the field, the only thing more dangerous than Lopez on the field is her social media game. It's no exaggeration to say that this gigantic gorgon possesses such inner and outer beauty that Aphrodite herself would admire her.

Early History

Ortiz Lopez started life as a Pueblan milk snake, and at an undisclosed time in her life (a lady never reveals her age) was struck by a bolt of fiery lightning from the entity Xiuhcoatl, the serpent god of the Nahua, being used as a divine spear. This impact granted Lopez consciousness and transformed her, filling her with a latent power that transformed her at the time into a ball of shining energy, similar to a small sun, nearly impossible to look upon for her sheer beauty. After this event, being disconnected from a distinct physical form allowed Lopez to travel through the world outside of her natural habitat, and observe the Nahua people she felt she belonged with more closely. She roamed the land, watching, observing humans and growing alongside her tribe even as an entity of pure energy, and found herself drawn to the beauty and delight of the human experience and wanted to be a part of what the human world had to offer. She found words for what she was, what she wanted, and claimed them for herself, proudly expressing herself as the beautiful being she had always longed to be.

Manifesting the latent power within herself, she began making a human form for herself. At first, she mirrored the masculine people she had first observed; however, after some time, she came to realize that this form did not suit her, and she embraced the feminine one she bears now. At 7 feet tall, she has bright pink skin, no eyes, red snakes for hair, immeasurable pride in herself, and a heart full of kindness for her fellow man. The origins of her name root in her attempts to maintain her connection to her cultural heritage while making her name her own, Lopez opted to go exclusively by her surnames, Ortiz Lopez. The form was chosen based on Lopez's own aesthetic eye and she loves the form that she has established for herself, keeping a few marks of her original snake form such as the snakes in her hair, and the pinkness of her skin. Lopez chose the form of a gorgon to express her ties to Xiuhcoatl, and molded her human form into one that made her feel the most confident and true to herself. To Lopez, she is the peak of physical attractiveness, and she flaunts it happily. As a gorgon, Lopez does have the power to turn her observers to stone, but chooses not to exercise this power often as it quote, "Gives me a bit of the heebie jeebies."

Engagement with Blaseball and Early Career

A short time later, Lopez met Percival Wheeler and Knight Triumphant in a bar near Mexico City after a practice match against the Mexico City Wild Wings. They then spent the evening together drinking and revelling (and in the case of one Percival Wheeler, starting a fight with some skinheads that Lopez quickly put an end to). They then talked about Knight Triumphant's newly started Blaseball team, The San Francisco Lovers. Lopez, Wheeler, and Triumphant immediately hit it off and Lopez agreed to join the team, and keep seeing both Wheeler and Triumphant in the process, starting some of her longest term relationships to date.

Her early career was rather lackluster as she got stuck in the habit of letting her snakes bat for her while taking selfies (or giving the absolute best hugs) with her hands. Given her snakes are just snakes, and not sentient or conscious in any way, this led to some rather inconsistent play for her, the snakes swinging sometimes wildly and dragging her across the field to steal bases seemingly at random. As her career has gone on, she has trained with her snakes and now can anticipate swings more readily with the pit sense input from her multiple snakes, making her a hitter to be loved and feared (Lopez still has a way to go when it comes to pitching, however.) This has definitely affected her overall confidence (and perhaps her ego) and has helped her feel more at home and comfortable on the field.

Lopez, while beginning on the San Fransisco Lovers, embraced the nature of Blaseball, having stated in interviews about potential Feedback, "Every team wants to get a piece of this eventually, who am I to fight it?"

Eating Fire

In the process of playing with the Lovers Lopez became close with her teammates, and was terrified that tragedy could befall her lovers and friends at any moment. She was especially shaken by the horrible fate that her love Pitching Machine befell under the control of The Great Shelled One, and wanted to become stronger to protect them. She spent several months communing with herself, digging deep for the power within, to find something to protect herself and her friends. This triggered Lopez's latent power gained from the god Xiuhcoatl, allowing her to swallow down the comparatively pitifully weak fires of the Umpires and granting her the Fire Eater modification. While many years had passed since she was first introduced to the power of Xiuhcoatl, Lopez had always carried this power, dormant, within her. Since this power has manifested, Lopez has spent much of her free time sharing the history and culture of her past with her fellow teammates, embracing her own history and origin as a proud Nahua woman touched by the god Xiuhcoatl.

As a vivacious and proud trans woman, Lopez has gripped her own power firmly in her own two hands (or hundreds of snakes, depending on if her hands are full), using it to protect herself and the ones she loves from the horrors of Blaseball, and spreading the love and light she has always held within herself across the league.

Minor structural feedback, but Ortiz's appearance is described twice, both in the first paragraph and in the 3rd one, and it feels somewhat repetitive

By the first paragraph are you referring to the "Wiki Summary"?

Yeah! Unless that stuff is just a summary of what follows and isn't supposed to be on the page, in which case, ignore me, sorry.

The "Wiki Summary" is more a top level paragraph/concept so if that's all people read then they get the basic overall elevator pitch of the player. Trying to make usage of the wiki's "reverse pyramid" structure.

EDIT: But I now see that we use the same wording, so we can probably adjust that somehow to not feel redundant.

I'm proposing this replacement of that section (and removal of the "Wiki Summary" header which wouldn't be included in the actual post anyways.

---

Lopez, a pansexual trans woman given new life by the gift of divine touch, is the most confident and seductive player in Internet League Blaseball. Beyond Lopez's striking appearence the thing most noticeable about this beloved batter is her love for her fellow teammates. Always ready to defend them from harm on and off the field, the only thing more dangerous than Lopez on the field is her social media game. It's no exaggeration to say that this gigantic gorgon possesses such inner and outer beauty that it would even make Aphrodite admire her.

This is a fork of the conversation that began in Concern About Lopez's Community Lore, specifically focusing now on the relationship between Ortiz Lopez and Pitching Machine. In summary, some contributors (in this case Lilypad and Winds) have expressed concern over the framing & nature of this relationship as it relates to acceptable content on this wiki, with concern that it is overly sexualized.

It is worth noting that this is hardly the first time this conversation has occurred on the subject of Ortiz Lopez & Pitching Machine. We, the wiki team, have previously ruled that the content currently on the page in that section is acceptable for our wiki. If innuendo based on word replacement was sufficient to breach a PG-13 rating, the Count would not be acceptable on Sesame Street. If discussions of consent are inherently sexual, then that sets bad precedent for the many non-sexual situations where consent plays an important role (e.g. a friend infodumping when you're exhausted and don't have the energy to listen).

We would like to direct your attention to our critique guide, specifically the sections Be Specific, and Offer Solutions and It’s Okay to Not Like Things. Winds' critique about the reference to Chuck Tingle is a good example of specificity, though we would appreciate a suggested solution to go along with it (e.g. "could you change the name so that is less clearly a parody of Chuck Tingle, known gay erotica author"). "This seems really sexualized, Won't Somebody Think Of The Children" is both extremely nonspecific and raises red flags for us that someone is trying to make something they personally dislike or are uncomfortable with into a moral issue. If the quality of critique doesn't improve, we will enforce a standardized feedback format, as we are extremely tired of dealing with this issue.

i really dont like that you're characterizing my critique as "won't somebody think of the children" when i am a literal minor telling you that i am uncomfortable. this isnt me pointing at hypothetical kids telling you to think about them, it's me pointing at myself telling you to think about me.

and again this is different from the count because you make explicit reference to a gay erotica writer. and it's being written and shared between children and adults and is not like television in that way because its a lot more interactive of an environment. and also it's just generally written with pretty clear reference to sexual relationships lmao

Lilypad, for the third time, I am going to ask that you make suggestions to pair with your critique. If you are against sexualization of any sort on this wiki, then I'm sorry to say that you are not looking for a PG-13 rating. Our decision to allow PG-13 content is a compromise between the adults, many of whom (including myself) are queer and are as-such extremely sensitive to concerns about our relationships and identities being seen as inherently sexual & inappropriate for children, and the presence of minors within the Blaseball fandom that reasonably should not be exposed to explicitly sexual or other vice-heavy content. If you are uncomfortable with where we have drawn the line, the only solution I can offer you is to stop reading this wiki. You are looking for a product that we cannot provide.

i think having sexualization in a space with minors being shared interactively Is Actually Preetty Fucking Weird and it makes me feel less safe being in this community as a result. you can write about queerness and queer relationships without including stuff that's so weirdly eroticized you could literally say it's a work by chuck tingle a couple paragraphs later. and if that's where we're drawing the line and you don't actually care about sexual work being shared between minors and adults then i guess you're right this community isn't a good space for minors and i will leave. "pg-13" movies aren't the same as pg-13 communities. pg-13 movies are not interactive and can have room for sexualization because it's not like adults and kids are literally sharing sexual work between each other interactively, and commenting on each other's sexual work. a pg-13 community would be less sexual than a literal pg-13 movie.

goodbye!

As the author of the PM x Ortiz section, I would greatly appreciate if you would not infer what is "generally written with pretty clear reference to sexual relationships". I can see how these things COULD be read that way, but as I said in my lengthy post that breaks down my entire mindset and intent of writing this section and the inspiration behind it all that it was NOT the intent or objective. If I missed my mark, I apologize for that.

Thank You.

link you'll notice that i also posted a few comments talking about how lack of intent can still produce an article that clearly has uncomfortable elements or has uncomfortable subtext. i dont actually care at all about your intent or mindset, i care about what the article says and what the article says bothers me.

We will take your suggestion under consideration as we continue to rework the article and tone it down. Thank you.

so, i'll preface this by saying i'm a trans minor myself. i understand where this sentiment is coming from-- it is far too prevalent in a lot of media. however, while you may feel like this is "overly sexual" in some capacity, ultimately you cannot speak for all trans minors. as the mods and multiple other people have said, all of her wiki falls under the pg-13 guidelines. some people may not like the page, others are completely fine with it. this sort of thing happens all the time. (i know personally, i do not have any issue with it whatsoever). you cannot speak for an entire demographic just because you feel very strongly about this one thing. this isn't me coming after you in any way, but ultimately it is just your opinion, you cannot decide that everyone has to feel the way you do

im not speaking for anyone but myself when i voice my discomfort, and if you look at what i said in my messages im only talking about my own discomfort. just because i do not represent the hive mind of trans kids doesn't mean my discomfort suddenly doesnt matter, and im glad for you feel like this article doesnt make you uncomfortable but if one person is comfortable and one person is uncomfortable there's still discomfort in the room

no offense, but if an incredibly small group is saying something is uncomfortable, and everyone else is saying that it's fine, and it is also within the rules of the wiki, i think it's fine.

Another questioning minor here, the solution to your problem is either not to engage with the wiki, or not to engage with this part of the wiki. Because the wiki is not a hard lore book, and you can change anything you want in your interpretations. Secondly the room metaphor is good and all, but in a room with thousands of people the best you can do is set rules that are good for most people, hence the compromise for pg-13.

I would like to be clear that I am not trying to make a statement on whether or not the content on the page should be on the wiki or not, or whether it violates the rules of the wiki.

I didn't really offer a solution because I don't personally think that I have a good one, nor do I want to say that there is inherently a problem with that sort of joke. Kids media makes jokes about the existence of sexual things and innuendos all the time, and I'm not really trying to start about the discussion of that being appropriate or not.

So what I'm trying to say is that I was just trying to point out that the existence of the chuck tingle reference feels incongruent with the rest of the section *if the intent is for it being nonsexualized/not an inuendo*

If it is intended to be an innuendo then it fits in. I don't want to say "Just remove it" as a solution, because that feels disingenuous. Because if it's intended to be as, at least a joke about a thing that *could* be interpreted as sexualized, but isn't necessarily *inherently* sexualized, (which would put it firmly into innuendo range) then I think it makes sense, but if it doesn't, I'd say it should be removed, or, maybe changed to a general jab about the trends of YA novel titles?

Sorry if my first post came across wrong?

Need to make a pretty direct admin announcement here.

First off, I want to apologize to Winds for stealing the thunder here--I think people should continue to discuss that thread. I don't think your comment came across wrong so much as entered an already heated conversation at a strange time.

I would like to reiterate, again, that this character has been a target for frequent and increasingly rough discourse around the policing of queer bodies and sexuality. We understand that there is a bit of discomfort with the portrayal of the Ortiz and Pitching Machine relationship here but it is well within the grounds of what we, in partial consultation with the Blaseball discord groundskeepers, would accept regarding interpersonal relationships.

We're not going to remove this material on community safety grounds and that decision is final. If the community wants to continue to work in tandem to make changes to this material for other reasons, I encourage you to continue discussing it. The wiki cannot be everything for everyone and we err on the side of expression (again, within bounds) when it comes to content that can cause passionate reactions.

I am available for private replies to this if you do not feel comfortable discussing on this thread. nesbitt#1991 is the best way to reach me on Discord.

i havent been following this (but i got 13 notifications about it lmao), but i just saw the chuckle tingle joke and oh my god does that read as just, really, really unfortunate innuendo to my awful brain.

that said, the rest of the pitching machine stuff reads totally fine to me, and if you do feel the need to change the chuck tingle joke, maybe something like "Love Bites: My Phlebotomy with the Unlimited Tacos Pitching Machine" would keep the essence of the joke. (that's my best attempt at a SFW chuck tingle okay (seriously, chuck tingle and vampires, what a minefield, my condolences))

As someone who had never heard of chuck tingle before this section came under scrutiny, I really like this both as a way to address complaints and just as a funnier joke (to me). Thank you Snerkus, very cool!

Hiya. Was looking for some info for a little research project I'm doing. Has this player's Fire Eater modification ever fired? The League Records section is a bit sparse, not sure where to find factual info on this wiki.

Looks like it has according to reblase, on Season 17 Day 60 (Georgias vs Dale).

It also fired some more times in season 10.